Your Mama's Kitchen Episode 35: Misty Copeland
Audible Originals presents Your Mama’s Kitchen, hosted by Michele Norris
Misty Copeland: Being in a studio, all the tension went away. All the stress from my life outside went away. And I could just completely focus on this thing and have this beautiful music playing and just create and use my body and forget about everything. It's the same way on the stage. It's like the one place where I feel like the most at home. You know, you can't see anyone's face in the audience. It's completely dark, and I can just do what I do.
Michele: Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how we’re shaped as adults by the kitchens we grew up in as kids—I’m Michele Norris.
Today we are graced with a special guest—Misty Copeland!! She’s the first African American woman to be a principal dancer with American Ballet Theatre. That’s a big deal because the ABT is one of the top classical dance companies in the entire world. Raised in San Pedro, California, Misty began her ballet journey late by typical standards. She did not start dancing until she was in her teens, but she was immediately recognized as a prodigy.
Misty’s family experienced a lot of instability during her childhood—moving often, living in motels, the stress of unpaid bills. Yet you wouldn’t know all that by the radiant confidence that shined through in her dance. Copeland was focused. disciplined and a natural in ballet shoes. She had a meteoric rise through the ranks, making stops at some of the country’s top ballet programs.
You might think that a good diet was necessary to fuel that journey. But Misty never really had a significant relationship with food growing up. There was never enough of it—never a consistent kitchen to prepare it. It was only after she got to the ABT and met her husband, Olu Evens that she started to really understand how nutrition was vital to her craft and her general wellbeing.
Today, she’s a bona fide foodie! She loves to “grab a glass of prosecco and just create” in the kitchen with young son Jackson alongside her as a sous chef. In this episode, we hear how a shy kid became one of the world’s most celebrated ballet stars on a journey filled with both pain and triumph, We get a recipe for one of her favorite go-to meals—tilapia baked with tomatoes and veggies—and get this! We hear about her special bond with the late musician Prince. Yes! His purple majesty followed her career from the start and repeatedly brought her on stage as part of his live shows. It's a great story and a great episode coming up.
Michele Norris Misty Copeland, thank you so much for making time for us. I've been looking forward to this.
Misty Copeland Oh my gosh, me too. Thank you for having me.
Michele Norris Oh, it's a pleasure to have you in the studio with us. I was interested to talk to you because for so many reasons, because you've moved around a lot. Kitchens were a place of comfort. But also, it sounds like a place of want. It sounds like in your family. Now, the kitchen is a place where you come together and find both strength and solace. So when I ask about your mama's kitchen, I don't want to direct you anywhere, I just kind of wonder, where does your mind go?
Misty Copeland It goes to so many places. You know, I think about my upbringing. So I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. My mother had married her second husband when she had me and my three siblings, and my mother divorced him. And we moved to California when I was two years old. I have no early memories of a kitchen, of being in a kitchen. You know, that idea of kind of family gathering around a table? You know, there's a lot of movement from the time I was two years old. So my mother eventually would marry two more times, have two more children. So I'm one of six kids. The first time I can remember food being made in my household was when I was seven years old, with one of my stepfathers. But he was very strict, so it wasn't kind of a family, gathering. It was. He was in the kitchen. He made a lot of rice. He's Hawaiian and Filipino. And so, a lot of spam and rice and curries and things like that. But I was never really a part of it, so it kind of felt like the kitchen was not a place for kids to be, wasn't a place where I kind of felt like love. And so I would say the first time that I experienced, I guess, all of those adjectives I'm describing is maybe what I was, you know, yearning for, was probably when I was 13 years old.
Michele Norris And when you went to live with the Bradleys.
Misty Copeland Yes. I was introduced to ballet at 13 years old, at my Boys and Girls Club on a basketball court and the local ballet, teacher, Cynthia Bradley, was looking for more diverse students to bring into her ballet studio on scholarship. And I happened to be one of those students. She immediately said I was a prodigy, invited me to come live with her and her family. That was kind of the first time that I really experienced what that meant. I guess, like family sitting around a table in the kitchen, all kind of coming together, sharing stories. What happened to them that day? Her husband Patrick, cooked. But the first time that I was really invited into the kitchen was by her mother, Katherine, who we all called Bubbie. Every Friday, Shabbat dinner. And Bobby would have me make the matzo balls with her, and we would have matzo ball soup or whatever it was she was making that day. And that was the first time that I experienced what it was to, you know, put love into food and fuel, nourished in kind of this nurturing way that made me fall in.
Michele Norris Love with.
Misty Copeland Being in a kitchen and cooking.
Michele Norris What a wonderful memory to hold on to when you're describing that. I can imagine you with Bobby in the kitchen with your hands and the masa meal making the matzo balls. But when I asked the initial question, you said you don't have a memory of a kitchen. I'm not entirely surprised by that, because in reading about you and reading your book, and I must say, I wasn't able to find a lot about you in the kitchen. Is it just that the kitchen was a place that you chose not to remember, because stuff happened in the kitchen that you wanted to push out of your mind? Or was the kitchen just a place that you just didn't, you know, you went there to eat and then you're up and out? Why do you think in your case, it's not part of your memory bank?
Misty Copeland Well, until I lived with my stepfather, we didn't have a stable home. We were often houseless. I mean, we lived in a lot of motels. There's a lot of moving around to different motels, and there wasn't really a kitchen. You call it a kitchenette or something like that. There was a lot of cooking going on. And so I don't really have memory of cooking happening. You know, it was fast food or, you know, we shopped at the 99 cent store, whatever cheap grocery store, you know, we're eating cup of noodle and canned vegetables. So, you know, I don't know that there was necessarily like a negative experience or something that happened in the kitchen. I just really don't remember kitchens being like a present part of my upbringing.
Michele Norris You know, it sounds so like the instability in some ways created the discipline that served you so well later on. 100%, you were saying that there was so much instability that you tried so hard to create stability in other parts of your life. I, I thought it was so interesting that you timed how long it would take you to get to school, and then how long it would take you to get from class to class. You were taking control over what you could control in a life where you didn't have control on a lot of other areas.
Misty Copeland Yeah, I was hungry for a discipline, and I think a lot of kids are. When they don't have a structure, it's like they need some kind of structure. And I feel like I didn't have that or something that I, I had control over. And so it became time, you know, it became a school, like you were saying, you know, I had such and such a. Society and fear of of standing out. I didn't want to stand out in any way. I wanted to just be like everyone else. I didn't want people to know about what was happening in my personal life. So everything I could do to control that narrative, I would. Coming into the ballet world gave me this sense of structure and consistency, something I could depend on. I would go to ballet class and no matter what age you are. Even as a professional today, ballet class looks exactly the same. It's the same format. And there's something so comforting about that that I would rely on, you know, when I was 13 and starting out. It was the one place where I could relax and just depend on the fact that I was going to do plays and time days and deejays and, you know, and I had the same structure within every, every class. And, you know, and as soon as I left the studio or as soon as I left the stage, all the chaos came back.
Michele Norris You may ask a question about your mom. Yeah. She was a cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs. Sounds like she was a very feisty woman and a survivor in a lot of rough circumstances. You guys had to pack up and move quickly, but it sounds like she always figured it out. Are there things that you recognize now looking over your shoulder that you realize, as hard as it was, as tumultuous as that relationship may have been that you took from watching her that live inside you today?
Misty Copeland Oh, absolutely. So many things. You know, I think that's why I have gotten to where I've gotten in my career. I've never allowed for myself to kind of stay in situations that, you know, weren't going to push me, that weren't going to get me to where I wanted to go. And my mom was so strong in that way. You know, I think that because of the way she grew up, she didn't always pick the right man or or environments to be around. But she knew when she'd kind of reached her tolerance and it was no longer okay to have her children in a situation. And she just she was constantly persevering, like there was never a moment where, no matter how low we were, that she just kind of gave up and let things happen around her. It was like, okay, well, what can what's next? What can we do to make this situation better? What can we do to, to move on to, you know, a better situation? And so I definitely have my fight and my strength and perseverance from her. I think I also have this really strong connection to who I am and my culture in terms of being a black woman. That's something that she instilled in me and my siblings. You know, she was adopted and struggled a lot with identity, I guess. And, you know, she's biracial, but her adoptive parents were black. And so she had, you know, her difficulties and her challenges of being biracial. But, you know, her parents had it instilled in her that it doesn't matter how much black you have in you when you walk outside of these doors, you know, this house. You're going to be seen and treated as a black woman in America. And that's something that I'm grateful for. How she raised me and my siblings. You know, I think that it prepared me, as you were saying, to come into the ballet world, as a black woman and really, I think have a sense of who I am and how I'm perceived. And then, of course, with all of the obstacles that we had, I think that, you know, after experiencing how I grew up, I stepped into the ballet world and I was like, oh, this is a piece of cake. I can do anything, I can handle it.
Michele Norris Cynthia Bradley, who we mentioned was the woman who invited you to come and live with her, she spotted you. You were going to classes, and they were some distance from your home. And so getting from your house to school to class, I could envision just how difficult that had to be. And there was the day that Cynthia Bradley tried to do you a favor and give you a ride home. Can you just describe that day for us, and what was going through your mind as you were getting closer and closer to where your family lived at that point, and realizing that this woman who represented your hopes and dreams for a different kind of future was going to see where you actually lived at that moment? What was that day like? That was the day that really changed everything for you.
Misty Copeland You know, I went my whole childhood really, you know, in school, not really having any close friends. And luckily I had five siblings. And so we were each other's best friends. But I wasn't close with anyone because I didn't want them to know these things about my life. So, you know, we were taking a couple of busses every day, and my mom decided, you know, this is just too much. This is too much. Trying to figure out how your, you know, someone had to always be with me. You know, if I was taking a bus or, you know, I was, someone's my my sister's boyfriends were driving me back and forth. And so I got to the point where she was just like, this is too much. You know, you need to focus on school, and I need to make sure my all my children are safe and are getting home in one piece. So, can you find a ride home and that's it? You're gonna have to tell Cindy that this is your last class. And so I was devastated. I didn't even know where to begin, so I asked Cindy if she would drive me home. I gave her the address, but I didn't tell her the name of the place we were going. She was. She was pretty upset the whole ride home, thinking it was the last time she was going to see me. So we pull up to the Sunset and Motel in Gardena and drove into the parking area, and I just ran out of the car.
Michele Norris No goodbye or anything?
Misty Copeland No, I just I was so embarrassed and just sad. So I ran out of the car and into the into the room. I just was kind of sitting in the corner. There was a knock on the door, and it was Cindy. And she was talking to my mom. I couldn't hear what they were saying. And then my mom turned around and said, Cindy asked if you wanted to live with her and continue training. And it was just like, what? This wasn't even something that I considered was possible. And my mom said, I'll let you do it. I'll let you go. And so I got my backpack, and I mean, I had very few clothes anyway, so I just kind of shoved it all in my school bag and walked out. And, you know, on the way home, Cindy said that she had she drove away, and she just. That's the idea. The thought of me not continuing on with so much potential, just she couldn't let it happen. So she turned around. You know, we didn't have cell phones, and so she couldn't even call her her husband. So tell him what she had decided. So we drove back to San Pedro, walked in the door, and Patrick, her husband, was making dinner and she yelled up to him and said, Misty's here with us. She's moving in. Can you set another place at the table? And that was the start of it. I ended up living with them for about three and a half years. [1]
Michele Norris And they had a child also. Right?
Misty Copeland A three year old son.
Michele Norris His name was Wolf.
Misty Copeland Yeah, Wolf. And I just kind of fit right in. I became a part of their family. And it was it was the first time that I had really experienced, real stability on a daily basis. I grew immensely, you know, within those three and a half years, I feel like I was really underdeveloped for my age at that point in my life. You know, it was so easy for me to kind of just hide between my siblings, and not have a voice. And, you know, even in school, just not really being pushed in any real way and not feeling I was good at anything, being a part of the arts and being a part of ballet and dance, it just kind of woke up everything inside of me. Not everyone learns in the same way. That's why the arts are so vital and important that not everyone learns, you know, from sitting in a classroom and being talked at or reading from a book. You know, some people need to be are visual learners or need to be physical and, and kind of connect all parts of their brain and body. And, and I flourished in that environment.
Michele Norris Well, speaking of being physical, did you also start to grow in different ways because you were getting regular nutrition?
Misty Copeland Yeah, I don't even think that I realized it at that point, but I definitely was like malnourished. I was very, very small when I moved in with Cindy, I mean, naturally, I was very petite, and still am, but when you're eating different types of food, my muscles were kind of blossoming and growing in different ways. It's really wild that even when I wasn't eating properly, how strong I was, you know, Cindy put me on in pointe shoes only two months after I started dancing.
Michele Norris That's unusual, isn't that? You usually work your way up to that.
Misty Copeland I mean, you have to train just in ballet slippers, I don't know, for 5 to 7, maybe more than that, years before you even begin the process of putting pointe shoes on. So, I mean, I think that just goes to show, like my genetic makeup and that I naturally kind of was built to be an athlete, but I grew I was just healthier in every and every way. And I think my brain was operating in on a different level. You know, once I was kind of fueling my body properly.
Michele Norris Did you realize, and looking back, how hard that must have been for your mom?
Misty Copeland I think around the age of 15 when I came back home, was when I, I think I started to see things from her perspective. And of course, having my own child now, I can't even imagine how difficult, you know, that must have been for her to let one of her children go, because there was a future for me. You know.
Michele Norris We should explain that you lived with Cynthia and Patrick Bradley for a number of years, and then you had tried to declare yourself as an emancipated adult while you were still a teenager. What happened there?
Misty Copeland My mother just didn't understand why I wasn't able to come home every weekend or, you know, have a two day weekend with my siblings. And a lot of the time it was because I was performing. I was also training on the weekends. So there's a lot of stuff that, you know, it's not it's not an extracurricular activity. What I was preparing for anyways, you know, from the moment I came into Cynthia's school, the goal was to get me to American Ballet Theater as a professional.
Michele Norris Can we just say a word there because you didn't start until you were 13, right? Most of the principal ballerinas who work their way to the ABT, the American Ballet Theater, start when they're learning how to walk. Essentially, they're three and four years old. So I just want to, you know, make that point there that that was incredibly ambitious, but also based on your talent. Quite possible.
Misty CopelandRight. But you know, from my mom's perspective, she felt like I was just being taken away from her. It got to a point where Cindy felt like, you know, if this is getting in the way of your training, like, what are we going to do? Like what is the plan? And we couldn't find a common ground. And so Cynthia and I had conversations with a lawyer. You know, they had me understand I was 15 years old at the time, and they had me understand that, I would become, you know, an adult. I would emancipate myself, you know, I would still see my family. We'd have the exact same kind of setup and situation. But I could make these decisions about me, my, my future and my career. And then it ended up not being that way. I, I'm not really sure what happened exactly, but you have to be 16 years old to emancipate yourself. And I was not at the time the way that, you know, the adults in my life went about it. It wasn't the best set up for me. Like I ended up going and living with a family who was at the ballet school, and my mom didn't know where I was. So she, you know, then the police got involved in a restraining order, you know, against my ballet teacher my mom had filed. So I ended up in court and it ended up, I mean, everywhere, you know, it's 60 minutes in 2020 and, you know, different talk shows. And I, you know, it was it was my biggest nightmare. It was everything I was trying to avoid my entire childhood. I didn't want anyone to know about the circumstances that I, you know, was living in. And it literally was plastered everywhere for the world to see. It was one of the toughest times in my life. And it was ballet that kind of centered me again. And I ended up finding another ballet school, in Torrance, California, and training there the remaining time before I would go on to dance professionally. But yeah, one of literally to this day, one of the most difficult times of my life.
Michele Norris I have this image in my head of you holding on to the bar, just holding on to something, you know, to keep you through that ballet was your ballast.
Misty Copeland Being in a studio, all the tension went away. All the stress from my life outside went away. And I could just completely focus on this thing and have this beautiful music playing and just create and use my body and forget about everything. It's the same way on the stage. It's like the one place where I feel like the most at home, you know, you can't see anyone's face in the audience. It's completely dark and I can just do what I do. And there's just always been such a security and safety, in ballet for me.
Michele Norris Did you go straight to New York?
Misty Copeland In terms of my professional career? Yes. So I would go away my very first summer to San Francisco for the San Francisco Ballet School, where they brought me in on full scholarship. I had only been dancing about a year and a half or so, and they put me in the highest level, and that was the first time that I was really surrounded by other students that were, you know, their goal was to become a professional.
Michele Norris How were you received?
Misty Copeland It was very interesting. I think I was one of two black girls in the entire program. I mean, and it's like hundreds of kids that come from all over the world to train. It was it was difficult. You know, there were there were other dancers in the class that were just kind of like, why is she here? And the teacher, you know, the, director of the of the summer intensive program, was really focused on me, and she wanted to give me the attention so that I could grow. And people saw that. And so it wasn't great in that sense, but I grew immensely in terms of, like my, my technical training. And then the following summer, I would be invited to New York City for the first time with American Ballet Theater. And that was a huge shock. You know, coming from this small town in California, living in the city, you know, pretty much on my own. I would spend what, my first summer in New York. And then the following summer, I moved here, at 17 years old, it's not like you're in a dorm or, you know, you have people around you that are helping, you know, teaching you or, you know, this is how you take care of your money or this is how you pay bills or this is how you cook. There was none of that happening. I was literally just, in an apartment living with, some other dancers. But pretty much just on my own.
Michele Norris Figuring it out at 17.
Misty Copeland Figuring it out. Yeah.
Michele Norris And somewhere along the way, you go through puberty?
Misty Copeland Not exactly. That would happen a little bit later, after I had moved here already.
Michele Norris So that happened when you got to. I was, you know, because puberty, no one wants to do that a second time, you know, I mean, I just think no one wants, you know, you may you may reminisce about your youth, but no one says, I want to go through puberty again. But if you were an athlete, and particularly if you are a dancer, where your physicality is so important and your physical form is so important, that had to be a particular challenge for you. And again, leading back to the kitchen. Because it's about, you know, so much of ballet is the pressure to present in that ideal Balanchine kind of form of a ballerina with a long, slim torso and sort of long, languid legs and, you know, when you go through puberty and also if you're a person of color and you have a little bit more curvature, that can be challenging.
Misty Copeland Yeah. It was extremely challenging. Again, I don't feel like I had anyone that was really preparing me for all of these things that were going to happen. You know, all of the women in my family hit puberty later in life. And again, we're all, like, very athletic. And I was so physical at the time. So it wasn't, you know, it was it was normal for me at 17, 18 to still have not started my period. I didn't hit puberty until I joined the the main company, until I actually became a professional dancer with American Ballet Theater. I was 19 years old, and it was. I only started my period because I ended up with a stress or a fracture in my lower lumbar, and I ended up having to miss that my very first year of dancing professionally in the court of ballet because of this back injury, and the doctors were convinced that it was because I hadn't gone through puberty yet. And so they put me on birth control.
Michele Norris Is that to try to strengthen your bones a little bit?
Misty Copeland Yes, to try to strengthen my bones. And I think it was one of the biggest mistakes. I ended up gaining 10 pounds in like a month and, you know, no longer was me. I didn't know how to take care of my body. It was just way. It was just way too much. And so then I when I went back to about a year later and was a completely different person, it just made it even more challenging. And again, I had no idea how to fuel my body. I didn't I didn't understand the value of food and quality food. And again, I bet, you know they had a nutritionist that you could pay to go see. And I'm like, I don't have the money to do that, you know? And so you're just kind of left out there on your own to fend for yourself. And, you know, that's why a lot of dancers end up with eating disorders and things like that, because there's no real guidance in this field, especially for young people.
Michele Norris I have this image of your mom moving from place to place to place. And when you live in apartment buildings or in motels, there is a kind of community. If your mom was a survivor, she probably would walk into a place and figure out, okay, that's the person who calls the shots. That's the person to avoid. This is the person who's nosy that can be useful. She can watch over my kids, you know, and you sort of do this immediate calculus. You know, when you move into a community like that. Did that help you when you moved into a ballet troupe?
Misty Copeland Yeah, I definitely feel like I have, like a natural radar for those, for those things. Like, I'm someone who kind of sits back, back and observes, you know, I think the what you're describing of like, the way my mother had to be in certain environments. And I think I watched and learned how to survive and certain situations. And so I definitely was that way. You know, watching a lot of the black men that I was surrounded by, I learned so much from, you know, and it's more rare to see a black woman in an elite ballet company than it is to see a black man. The woman where she represents ballet. She is the one that's at the center. She's dancing, you know, these leading roles. When you think of ballet, you think of the woman.
Michele Norris You're saying, you think of the white woman.
Misty Copeland You think of the white woman. And it's a lot easier for a black man to stand behind a white woman and support her, than it is for a black woman to be in the front, and kind of central to the story. And so, you know, there are a handful of black men that would come and go throughout my time, you know, in American Ballet Theater. And I learned so much from watching how they navigated through these white spaces. But me understanding, I think I came in to the ballet community in the ballet world thinking, if you have the talent that will shine through and that will get you to where you need to go, and that was not the case, especially when you're surrounded by literally the top talent of the world in one company. And so, you know, it was about building relationships and being, transparent and having honest conversations when things, you know, when I was having difficult times. And so it took me some time, but I ended up developing really beautiful relationships with some of the artistic staff, even some of my colleagues, where I could have difficult conversations about race and about, you know, the things that I was seeing where I, you know, I had to advocate for myself and I and I think in a different way than any of my white colleagues had to in order to get to where I've gotten to. But of course, I wouldn't have any of the understanding, or strength, I think, to do that without having had the incredible black women that have mentored me throughout my career, that really kind of got me to that, place of understanding and comfortability to be able to have those conversations.
Michele Norris When and how did you find the confidence to fully step into your blackness on stage? Because for a long time they were trying to lighten you up. They were lighting you in a certain way. They were using all kinds of facial powders. Even the tights and the shoes that you wore were meant to project a certain kind of, kind of porcelain veneer when you stepped onto the stage.
Misty Copeland You know, I think that it kind of coincides with, you know, everything that I'm talking about, like kind of coming into my own and understanding how to articulate myself and advocate for myself. I think that it kind of all happened at the same time. I don't think there was ever a time that those things were happening where I was okay with it. You walk into a room with, you know, a man who's your boss, a white man, and, you know, this little black girl crying about these issues. And it's like, I feel like I wouldn't have been taken seriously. It took me years just to be able to be in a room with my artistic director and not feel overemotional about the things I experienced day in and day out. But yeah, I got to a point where it was just like, what? What is the point of doing these things? You know, what's the point of me wearing the same color makeup as the the white girls next to me and challenging, challenging, you know, people to think about the artistic side of things and, and what's really behind it.
Michele NorrisWas there a particular conversation that you had that wound up being useful? You know, that you point to and say, okay, that was one that really worked. He heard me. She heard me.
Misty Copeland Oh gosh, there are so many. I mean, one that worked like it was like within a week I was like, oh, I see results. And it was a combination of having conversations with both O Lu and my mentor at the time, Raven Wilkinson, who was a former ballerina, black ballerina. And there were there was a soloist role that's like very common for a soloist. Perform. I think every female soloist in the company was performing this role in The Sleeping Beauty called Princess Fluorine and the Bluebird. And I was not cast to perform it. And, there were other quarter ballet dancers, which is lower rank, that were also performing that role. And I was just kind of left out and so kind of practicing, like, how am I going to go in there and say, like, I should be doing this? Like I never wanted to come off as though I'm like begging for a role. But coming to the table with. I know I'm capable of this. And I would love to be given an opportunity. What are the things I need to do in order to get to that place? And so I I'm, you know, going in there with that frame of mind, thinking I'm going to be told, well, you know, these are the things that you don't have and the things you need to work on technically. And instead my artistic director said, oh, you've performed that role, right? And I'm like, it's completely had been overlooked. It was shocking to me. It was like, how many roles or opportunities had I been overlooked for? He thought, oh, she's done that, or she's, you know, whatever it may be. And that was a big learning lesson for me. So, you know, within a couple of days I was cast to perform the role. And, you know, and I remember Raven telling me she's like, I don't think you realize how many people go into that office and say, I want to be doing this role, and it's not a bad thing, you know, to go in there and say what you want, but not just, you know, not just say it, say I'm willing to put in the work and work for it. What is it that I need to do?
Michele Norris It's interesting, Misty, because you say you never wanted to be in the spotlight, but you became a principal dancer. We have seen you on billboards. Really big billboards. We have seen you, on television ads. We have seen you in magazines. You developed a platform outside of the company. How did people inside the company react to that?
Misty Copeland I feel like throughout my journey that my colleagues have been right there with me, like, you know, on this path, and seeing my intentions and seeing the work and the consistency. And so I feel like I've just gotten a lot of respect and pride. You know, from my colleagues internally. But I would say in terms of the institution of ballet and the institution of American Ballet theater, it's been more difficult. I think a lot of the outside work that I've always understood the bigger picture, whether it's, you know, working with Prince or signing with Under Armor, the books that I'm writing, like I understood the bigger picture and that in the end it's going to bring more people into the theater. And that's what I've wanted. How do we bring more of a diverse audience, and how do we bring ballet to more people? And I think that it's taken a long time to understand that, that this is bigger than me and that it's, you know, and it's bigger than ballet, but it's for the future of ballet.
Michele Norris You know, you just said something working with Prince, like, that's just the thing that everybody gets to do right now. How did he find you?
Misty Copeland You know, I never got a straight answer from him.
Michele Norris That sounds like that's true to form.
Misty Copeland Yes it is. I found out after he passed that he had been following my career since I was 13. I mean, I was constantly, like, in the news or, you know, articles being written, you know, this prodigy and, you know, all the things that were happening with me. And so I found out that he had followed me since then. And then when I moved to New York, he kind of, I think, like kind of was following me but didn't really know what had happened, where I was and, he had just done this remake of the song Crimson and Clover, and his vision was that I would be dancing in it like that's what he wanted. And he said he couldn't find me. And so we ended up hiring another ballet dancer, and they, they they filmed the whole video, and he wasn't happy. And he was like, no, I still this is what I have in mind. It's it's misty in this video. And so he and someone of he he found me through like a friend who reached out to me. I remember waking up on like a Saturday at like 6 a.m. and my friend Kaitlyn calling me, and she said, Prince is trying to get Ahold of you. And I was like, who? What are you talking about? I was like, the prince of what country? She was like, no, no, no, the artist prince. And so we ended up connecting like that day, over the phone, I think I, I flew out to, LA, like the next day or something. It was on the set, and shot the video and then, you know, whenever he was just so respectful of my career. So whenever I wasn't on stage performing The Nutcracker with American Ballet Theater, I was on stage with Prince on top of his piano, dancing to the Beautiful Ones.
Michele Norris You know, Misty, you had said that it was hard for you to imagine kitchens earlier in your life because you were moving around all the time, but now you have the stability in your life with your husband and your son, Jax. What are you doing in your own kitchen now to make sure that Jackson has those memories, foundational memories of the kitchen that he's growing up in?
Misty Copeland Again, the kitchen has become a place for me to unwind. There have been times where my husband's like, can you get out of the kitchen, please? Can you come hang out with me? Because, like, I love being in the kitchen. Just like putting up music. And I would [get a] glass of prosecco and just create. And so that's something that I knew I wanted Jackson to be a part of. He just turned two, a couple of weeks ago. He has this little, like, tower that he stands on. And he's literally my sous chef. I give him things to do. He's a part of the cooking process. He chooses the music we listen to. It's like a dance party in there, you know, just for him to see that. You know, it's not just about eating. It can be about, you know, love and family and community. And so, you know, I want him to be able to be self-sufficient and be able to take care of himself at an early age, you know, to be able to make his own food and understand, like the value in that. But it's beautiful to be able to have that relationship with Jackson in the kitchen.
Michele Norris So we always gift our listeners with a recipe. And since your husband and Jackson are both pescatarian, it's not surprising that you're giving us a recipe for fish. Tell us about the baked fish that you're leaving with us.
Misty CopelandI bake so many different types of fish and have so many different recipes, but this one I was introduced to actually not that long ago, and it became one of Jackson's favorites immediately. I was with my sister in law, who's my husband's brother's wife, in Paris, and they made this beautiful white fish with, you know, tomatoes and tomato sauce and all these herbs. And I kind of took it and made it my own. It's a baked tilapia. I bake it at 400 degrees. I put, you know, fresh tomatoes, chopped and garlic and, olive oil and thyme and rosemary and a little bit of lemon. And I kind of just blend it all together, salt and pepper. And I bake it for about 20 minutes at 400. And that I love to do like a roasted vegetable also. And that's something that we have leftovers for. And Jackson can eat, you know, onions and carrots and and broccoli. Just some salt, pepper and, olive oil. Maybe a little bit of lemon too. Just like simple stuff that's like clean, but like very flavorful and healthy.
Michele Norris Fish covered or uncovered?
Misty Copeland Uncovered.
Michele Norris OK. And tomato. Do you use a large tomato or do you use, like, a plum tomato or cherry?
Misty Copeland Tomato, a large tomato? I like to have the juices from it to kind of all like it. It keeps it really nice and juicy. It's like a built in sauce.
Michele Norris Oven or air fryer?
Misty Copeland Oven.
Michele Norris Oven? Yeah. People who listen to the show know that I love my air fryer.
Misty Copeland I have not yet ventured into the air fryer.
Michele Norris Oh, you did you an air fryer? This really has been just lovely. Thank you.
Misty Copeland Thank you, thank you so much.
Misty Copeland’s life and her career are the embodiment of both grace...and strength. She is a striver and a survivor and you may have noticed how forgiving she is of the places and the people that were a source of pain.
It’s truly amazing how she went from being a kid who didn’t want to attract attention… to being a standout prodigy…and then a principal dancer and a spokesperson for creating a more diverse world among dancers. She uses her voice. She knows what she deserves and she backs all that up with a rock solid work ethic.
In the kitchen, she’s rewriting the script for her son. That’s clear. But if you listen closely to the way she lit up when she talked about her unwind time in the kitchen with a glass of prosecco – the woman who couldn’t even remember a childhood kitchen is re-writing the script for herself as well. Good on her. There’s a lesson in that for all of us. You can’t change your past, but you can reframe your future.
If you’d like to give a test run to Misty’s baked tilapia in YOUR kitchen, you can find that recipe on my Instagram page at Michele underscore underscore Norris, that’s two underscores. AND you can also find the recipe at our website – yourmamaskitchen.com. You will find all the recipes from all the episodes at yourmamaskitchen.com.
Now before we go – one last thing…we’ve been asking our listeners to tell us about THEIR kitchens.
Sonji Patrick: My name is Sonji Patrick. I grew up in the Bronx, and we landed in Harlem, where we last lived, until my mom passed away. My mother was Filipino. She was famous for her pancit canton and her shrimp fried rice. Believe it or not. My biggest memory, though, is that the kitchen was always a place for experimentation. It was a place where she allowed me, her only child, to learn how to cook, whether it was breakfast or learn how to make a new baked good. And so I did a lot of experimenting in my Nana's kitchen that time. Cooking and baking independently are my biggest memories of my mama's kitchen. Thank you for allowing me to share, some part of my story.
I just love these stories and we want to hear from YOU! Send us a voice memo to tell us about YOUR mama’s kitchen. The memories or the recipes or even thoughts on some of the stories you have heard on this podcast. It’s easy to do. Record your thoughts on your phone and send us that voice memo at Y-M-K AT Higher Ground Productions DOT com. Your story and your voice might be featured on a future episode!
Thanks for joining us! Make sure and follow Your Mama’s Kitchen. Give us a review. Subscribe so you never miss an episode because you know we are always serving up something special See you next week and until then – be bountiful.
Michele: This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original. Produced by Higher Ground Studios.
Senior producer - Natalie Rinn.
Producer - Sonia Htoon.
Additional production support by Misha Jones.
Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen and Ryan Kozlowski.
Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistant is Camila Thur de Koos.
Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and me, Michele Norris.
Executive producers for Audible are Nick D’Angelo and Ann Heppermann.
The show’s closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels.
Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media.
Talent booker - Angela Peluso.
SPECIAL THANKS THRESHOLD NYC.
Chief Content Officer Rachel Ghiazza.
And that’s it - goodbye everybody.
Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.
Sound Recording copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.
